So....
It was fun....I enjoyed it....now it's done....
I wanted to repeat what I consider to be some of the highlights of this debate as well as put up a conclusion....of course you can view the 40+ comments in the post 2 down from this one & make your own conclusion....:)
Here are some of the "well-said" pieces from the main contributors....
Anon said:
I'm here...lol..i never left!,im not a member of the family,but i am a born-again christian,and i enjoy reading all your family blogs.
Forgive me about being so negative about nigeria,there can be no doubt it is the worlds most corrupt country,whats saddens me is,the poor are piss poor in nigeria,yet theres more than enough oil money to go around.
Half the govt officals are christians,yet they rip the poor off,in 2 secs,and steal from everyone.!!
And you will see the same said govt officals at the church every sunday...2 faced bastards,this is what christianity is like for most people in nigeria.
Preach to the converted bryan,then that goodness may filter down to the poor!...christians thieving from the poor is a ******* tragedy.
That's where you can make a difference.
Talk about the muslims being peacefull! and honest...pull the other one bryan!!
Maybe your forgetting the thousands of christians they have killed in the name of there culture(notice i call it a culture) and not a religion,why?..coz surely religion dosent advocate killing?...ill reply to each one of you by a new post.
Best wishes. god bless..anon
Anj said:
Let's go point by point here:
For starters, Brian never said he doesn't "preach" to the Christians. As missionaries, we try to witness to everyone who crosses our paths, Moslems and Christians alike.
We're all agreed that it's a tragedy the Christian government is stealing from the poor. Nobody is debating that that's wrong. But it's not for you to say who someone should preach to. Remember Jesus said that His message was "for the Gentiles".
Please also note that The Family is doing their part to help those "piss-poor" Christian Nigerians by helping them in whatever way the Lord has shown them. But we can't do everything.
Jesus preached through His sample, not a sermon. The Family is doing what they can to reach both the rich and the poor in Nigeria. But the individuals have to make the choice whether or not to listen. That is something beyond our control.
Perhaps you could pray more for the corrupt government officials. Prayer does more than any preaching ever could. It can change peoples' hearts and help them make the choice to listen. Whereas the preaching might just fall on deaf ears.
Tell me, what are you doing to help the situation in Nigeria? You've got very strong opinions on what should be done and how it should be done... but what are you doing towards it? How much of your talk are you backing up with prayer?
PS: I won't even bother to reply to your comment about the US. It's a whole 'nother subject. Perhaps we can talk about it in a different forum.
Curly Cel said:
I've already said a wee bit, but in reply to anonymous' comment, corruption is, sad to say, a worldwide issue. - Not just limited to Nigeria, or the Christians there. I realize Nigeria might be #1, but that's what happens when greed comes into the picture.
Take the US for example, they're meant to be one of the most "Christian" nations of the world, but it's currently involved in more wars than any country worldwide. Religion has been a sad excuse for wars, but it doesn't matter if you're Jew, or Christian, or Muslim, or what have you, its just bad. - War is wrong, and evil doesn't fix evil! If the US was living the Christian sample as it was meant to they'd "love their enemies, do good to them that hate them, etc. etc. etc." - You can read it for yourself in Matthew 5.
I could go on and on, but what I'm trying to say is that just because the Christians are the ones that are, sad to say, responsible for such actions, it doesn't mean the entire nation is to be labeled and sent to Hell. - Which is why Brian brings out the positive.
Love the sinner, yet hate the sin.
Following is what I feel was the best contribution to this debate....& even if I only listen to the advice in this comment, the whole discussion was worth it.....I'm not sure if this is 'Anon' himself, or another anonymous, but someone said:
To brian and whacky...im sure you probably know who is writing this,and ill tell you why ive contributed to a debate on brians blog.
For many years ive observed the situation as regards the poor in africa,and the christians/muslims and pan-african corruption.
Nothing has changed,but i hope that others who read this blog,feel inspired to maybe go there,and help make that difference.
I tell it as i see it,i make no apoligies for that,ill stick my neck out for injustices being perpatrated in the name of jesus.
Both you guys give the worldwide internet surfer an insight into your missionary work.
Have you ever thought of the internet as a continuation of that work?
As whacky has said(on her blog),a lot of family blogs,are just pure rubbish,that dont merit more than a 5 min look,i think all family blogs should be used to explain to the world,your role in life serving jesus,as a missionary.
The family has recieved much bad publicity in the past,to put this right,you need to share what your doing for the lord,everything else is secondary.
A missionaries job is 24/7 and that includes blogs.
Many family blogs have links to other family blogs,you go from whackys blog,to another blog that dosent witness to anyone.
It didnt take a clever man to find your blogs either,a link to them is on ex-family.org
point is...please pass the word around to share more about what your missionary work is all about.
By doing that,others may come to know the lord,feel inspired to get involved,and the family 'KNOCKERS' will have nothing to talk about.
god bless the both of you,and the family...
My final thoughts were (during what turned about to be roughly 1 3rd thru the debate):
Ok, I'm gonna wrap up my thoughts on this & let others continue....I'm still hoping to hear from new debators on this topic & find out how everyone else feels about the orginal issue (WHETHER I'M RIGHT IN SHOWING THE SIDE OF NIGERIA THAT I DO OR NOT!!!--Why the debate originally started!)
After that I'm gonna close this debate, as we're now officially going in circles....
--I agree that NG is corrupt to the core & that I should preach honesty & fairness to whichever people in power I come in contact with.
--MEANWHILE...I'm gonna continue improving the lives of every individual I can, & see everyone & the situation around me through the eyes of LOVE (or Rose colored glasses, as Anon put it)...instead of waiting around for corruption to stop while doing a bunch of "preaching". To see how I do that, simply stay tuned to this blog...
--I copy a sample of Jesus as per how he lived His life when He was on earth as well as how he speaks to me personally every day in prophecy. He said (and I quote)
"LOVE YOUR ENEMIES"--Mat. 5:44
"FORGIVE (REPEATEDLY)"--Mat. 18:22
"PRAY FOR YOUR PERSECUTORS"--Mat. 5:44
(Also see Mat. 21:41 for how Jesus will personally deal with the wicked when He returns)
As far as high ideals & nation-wide/large-scale anti-corruption schemes/going to war with the entire Muslim world....I'll leave these things up to Anon, who, while he talks a lot, I'm not sure of all that he's practically doing in an everyday setting to win souls & spread the message(I'd be interested to know, Anon.....let us know....although, yes, you're doing it right here on these comments, so GBY for that).
--The orginal question as to how many people Jesus (or his first Apostles, or other famous missionaries, I'll add) killed, was never answered, Anon????
--Mr.(or Ms.) pro-America, pro-Jew/anti-Muslim.....I'll be posting some more things that you might find interesting!!! Stay tuned. If you give me an e-mail address, I'll send direct...
I'm gonna let my friend, Richard's comment act as the conclusion to this debate, as it about sums up what quite a few of us were saying. I also understand that Anon, agreed with several of these points below as well......so this will act as the general conclusion.
Richard, said:
I am a Missionary in the Family who Brian happens to be visiting here in Nigeria, I have been here for the past two and a half years and have spent about six years total in Africa. I have been to most countries in West Africa, and have seen both Christian and Moslem governments, religious leaders, etc...
The problem, Anon, has nothing to do with religious orientation, it has much more to do with cultural mindsets that have been passed down for the last thousand some odd years. Democracy is a recent development in Africa and like any country that has a major shift in government it takes a while for the kinks to be ironed out. What is called corruption in Africa is not really considered corruption by the people, at least not in the same sense that we see it as. We Americans or westerners who have the privilege of 2000+ years of experimenting in democracy often take for granted the struggles it took to get to where we are at today. Since we haven’t lived in any era except the one we are in now we don’t give much thought to the corruption that existed for centuries past only in the last 60 years or so has corruption become lessened, and, to be honest, I am sure corruption would still be rampant in all countries if there wasn’t the system of control and the proverbial "watch dogs" set in place by governments in the past.
You forget, Anon, that Nigeria has made strides in overcoming their problems with corruption; an example of which is the paying off of their foreign debt and building up their foreign reserve to about 38 billion dollars, pretty good when you compare with the US which has more then 3 trillion dollars in foreign debt... but that is a different subject and I wont get off on that.
The point I am trying to make is that Nigerians are still a people and culture that are inexperienced in the ethics that come with Christianity and Democracy, 100 years ago paying money to the chief when you committed a crime was considered normal, and to think that with only 7 years or so of real democracy they will have stamped out old cultural habits that they have had for thousands of years is just not realistic. Living here I would love to see corruption stamped out and money actually going where it is supposed to be but I know that I probably wont ever see it in my life time (except, of course, when the Lord returns). But I know I can try to plant a seed here or there.
There is a story in the Family that we have all sort of grown up on, it is about a young man who went on a walking tour of southern France during the early twenties right after world war 1; It was a very desolate place as during the war much landscape was destroyed and there wasn’t funding or time to properly care for the forests and fauna and what not. During his tour, however, he came across an old shepherd who he happened to stay with for a couple nights, and every night he noticed that the old shepherd would sort different nuts and seeds. Every day when he would take his flock of sheep out he would plant the various nuts and seeds. When the young man queried him on this, he told him he was planting trees......
See the 5th comment in the 'comments' section of this post for the rest of the Change the World story, as well as the rest of Richard's comment. Tx!
late-80s....about 5 or so years after my parents got together....
The handsome young man in the middle, sporting the loud, blue tie, is me......my 2 younger sisters on either side, Petra & Christina, respectively. (Yes, that's right, the little dimple-faced, chestnut-head with the clothes that don't match, is the beautiful young woman you see in the picture about 3 posts down....)
Myself (mid-left), sis Christina, & Mom, C'mas '99
With my sister Lisa, sis Petra & her son, Emilio & my Mom, around 2004 sometime.
Lisa & Petra....out of their teen years, but not quite "present day"!
With My Dad last summer...
I read your blog with interest,having worked in nigeria for 4 years,PH and warri,then you seem to paint a rosy picture of life there brian!.
We both know nigeria is the no1 corrupt country in the world,where the rich get richer...and the poor are piss poor.(4---1---9eeers!)
Worse still many of the goverment are christians who steal from the people at the drop of a hat...graft is endemic,how many palms have you had to grease brian?...
Point is,it only takes a few good men to change things,but no-one wants to see change in nigeria...apart from the very poor.
Your efforts would be better employed as a missionary preaching to the converted my son,telling christians that thieving from each other is wrong!....speak pidgin brian? mus love so please share what its really like in nigeria,and dont spare the finger pointing! god bless a wise moi!