Adventure for a Lifetime: Debate......

Sunday, February 11, 2007

Debate......

Hey, ppl....
I wanted to include you all in what simply started as a discussion between me, anonymous & a couple of my friends....It's getting pretty interesting, so I thought to include everyone. These comments orginally followed my sister's B'day post, but now I'm putting them up here so you can see--and so you can add your own 2 cents.....n-e-1?

The issue:

Anonymous said=: I read your blog with interest,having worked in nigeria for 4 years,PH and warri,then you seem to paint a rosy picture of life there brian!.
We both know nigeria is the no1 corrupt country in the world,where the rich get richer...and the poor are piss poor.(4---1---9eeers!)
Worse still many of the goverment are christians who steal from the people at the drop of a hat...graft is endemic,how many palms have you had to grease brian?...
Point is,it only takes a few good men to change things,but no-one wants to see change in nigeria...apart from the very poor.
Your efforts would be better employed as a missionary preaching to the converted my son,telling christians that thieving from each other is wrong!....speak pidgin brian? mus love so please share what its really like in nigeria,and dont spare the finger pointing! god bless a wise moi!
He's right, sometimes I have I give cops tips (sometimes.....most times they'll stop me on the road & then just let me go, after me telling them the nature of my work & that I honestly don't have n-e money). I recall one trip I made, about 7 years ago, from Abuja all the way to Calabar by road with about 6 of us missionaries & we didn't give 1 bribe....this is God's honest truth (albeit, I'm sure, a rare happening).

Anyway, a few replies followed....

My friend, Curly Cel, said:

Strange comment anonymous! A missionary is someone that goes where the need is and preaches the gospel to EVERY creature! Who is to choose whether someone is "worthy" or not? - If anything, those who haven't had a chance deserve a chance.
Regardless, no one is worthy, and I know for a certainty that every country has its tales of corruption. - Some more obvious than others.
God bless you, Brian, for doing your part to fulfill Jesus' commission to us all! (Yes, you too anonymous!); 8/2/07 4:13 PM


Anonymous said...: Curly..nigeria is the no1 most corrupt country in the world!,christians rule the country,and steal the oil money from the poor!.
Brian paints a very one sided view of nigeria,that of a missionary wearing rose tinted glasses,whom dosent fill us in on the whole picture.
What im saying is,preach to the converted christians,and tell them its wrong to steal!.
Nothing gets done in nigeria without a palm being greased,a trip along the highway will cost you 200 ciggarettes at least.
One good man,can and will make a good difference amongst others... www.transparency.org; 8/2/07 11:52 PM
Brian Whyte said...: Hi, again, Anonymous!
You're absolutely right! Nigeria is very corrupt, it's a known fact & it's (corruption's) effects are seen everywhere...but you'd be surprised at how many good & honest ppl there are here too...

I'm pretty new to Nigeria & you probably have seen a lot more than I have. But also, due to the nature of my work I get to see the good side of people, or in many cases bring that side out of them. Nigerians really do respect missionaries & most sincerely love to talk about God & hear God's Word...that's something that you don't find as much in the West & which is rather refreshing around here. My point by that being that because my job is helping people with their physical & spiritual needs, as well as preaching & teaching God's Word, my interactions with people are on a very different level & I'm sure that I see a different "side" to Nigeria, shall we say, then if I was in the construction, or oil business, for example. You know what I mean? I think that we're both right in our own way...you being right that Nigeria is very corrupt & something should be done about it...and me being right in the way that there is a different & more humble side to the Nigerians that is brought out when you just deal with their hearts (I can only tell you what I've seen, right?), & I'm possibly seeing that other side. Do you agree?
It also reminds me of the Bible verse that says "Where sin doth abound
grace doth much more abound"....in other words, God's spirit compensates for the evil that's in or around a certain place.
This doesn't mean that we should just accept the evil & wrong-doing we see around us, but it means that if you really look hard, there's usually a lot more good than there is bad.

But yes, do excuse the rosy picture. I really like this country & have a sort of soft spot for the people here.....Also, sort of like I was saying before, the nature of my work is sort of one-sided & that side is what I present. That's really all I can do, no?
But Have you been to the North of Nigeria? It's really different from the oil-country (Warri-side & that..) & the people are relatively simple & pretty sincere in their faith in God (Muslims, mostly). It's quite different from the Other areas....I'd actually confidently say that my postings about Zaria & that, aren't really one-sided (did ya' read my write-up @ VVF?).....
Anyways, this is a great debate & I'd love to hear more from the rest of the world what ppl have to say on this issue....I'll put this up as a post tomorrow & we'll see what other comments we get.
btw, I haven't forgotten & I'll still put up that post about my family.

Take care & God bless!

P.S. Do you have a name, or must we forever refer to you as 'anonymous'?; 10/2/07 3:51 AM
Mom said...: Hi son, I think you are doing a wonderful job. Despite the horror in today's world, a little bit of love, looking for one's heart and truly showing what God's love is like, goes a long long way, no matter where you are. God has no hands but ours and no face but ours, and Lord help us to use that for His glory. Besides that it is not what others think how you are doing or what you are doing, your life is between you and God. One day you are to give an account of your life to the One you love and that is enough!
Love you lots and pray for you always!
Mom XXX
(by the way folks I'm white; wait for our family's pic, eh!- a truly salt and pepper family!)
What say the rest of you???? I'm especially looking forward to ppl who've specifically lived & worked here in Nigeria (or in Africa for the broader debate contribution) to hear what they have to say.... What have your experiences of Nigeria been? Do I paint a one-sided picture of this place (I guess I already know that I do)? But am I justified in just showing this side? Is Nigeria really the number 1 corrupt country in the world?
And for the rest of you, what specifics would you appreciate learning about Nigeria? Do you agree that I would see things the way I do in light of the nature of my work & the fact that I'm a missionary who deals with the heart? Tell all!
P.S. pidgin comments most welcome....

46 comments:

whacky said...: Brian, we're taught to see the good in people. We learn to look at the positive, no matter what our situation! As missionaries, serving in some of the toughest conditions in the world, we have to have that.
In a sense, we have to see the world through rose-coloured glasses (also known as Praise) in order for us to just get through the day.
We're not blind. We do see the corruption, the filth, the poverty, the wrong done by other Christians, but we choose to rise above it. We make a conscious decision not to focus on the negative, but to look at the beauty inside people's hearts and that's what gives us the motivation to continue doing what we do.
(I feel inspiration coming on... think I'll write up something on this subject) ;-)
-- My two cents

PS: Never been in Africa, but India is pretty similar in many ways.; 11/2/07 2:38 PM
CurlyCel said...: I've already said a wee bit, but in reply to anonymous' comment, corruption is, sad to say, a worldwide issue. - Not just limited to Nigeria, or the Christians there. I realize Nigeria might be #1, but that's what happens when greed comes into the picture.

Take the US for example, they're meant to be one of the most "Christian" nations of the world, but it's currently involved in more wars than any country worldwide. Religion has been a sad excuse for wars, but it doesn't matter if you're Jew, or Christian, or Muslim, or what have you, its just bad. - War is wrong, and evil doesn't fix evil! If the US was living the Christian sample as it was meant to they'd "love their enemies, do good to them that hate them, etc. etc. etc." - You can read it for yourself in Matthew 5.

I could go on and on, but what I'm trying to say is that just because the Christians are the ones that are, sad to say, responsible for such actions, it doesn't mean the entire nation is to be labeled and sent to Hell. - Which is why Brian brings out the positive.

Love the sinner, yet hate the sin.; 11/2/07 5:51 PM
Unknown said...: Thanks, Anj & Cel! I agree with you both...let's see what the others have to say...

I think anonymous must be temporarily out of town....I expected to hear more from him....soon enough, I guess!; 11/2/07 8:11 PM
Axe Addict said...: Na wa o! Wetin you say about my country? I go come again one day for that place. My heart dey for Gwagwalada, and my Warri. I dey like it. Is hot o, but the heat don't change me.

Yes, it's a mess, but it's a beautiful mess. Yes, there are bad parts, but there are good things about even those. Yes, I don't like the way you put things (you know who you are), but I'll love you still. Whether whether you agree with the opinions posted here or not is your choice. My two cents!

(I've lived two and a half years to back up the statement that regardless of what other think, or what you may have heard or seen or wondered about, it's a beautiful country and I've always loved it.); 11/2/07 9:22 PM
Anonymous said...: Im here...lol..i never left!,im not a member of the family,but i am a born-again christian,and i enjoy reading all your family blogs.
Forgive me about being so negative about nigeria,there can be no doubt it is the worlds most corrupt country,whats saddens me is,the poor are piss poor in nigeria,yet theres more than enough oil money to go around.
Half the govt officals are christians,yet they rip the poor off,in 2 secs,and steal from everyone.!!
And you will see the same said govt officals at the church every sunday...2 faced bastards,this is what christianity is like for most people in nigeria.
Preach to the converted bryan,then that goodness may filter down to the poor!...christians thieving from the poor is a *ucking tragedy.
Thats where you can make a difference.
Talk about the muslims being peacefull! and honest...pull the other one bryan!!
Maybe your forgetting the thousands of christians they have killed in the name of there culture(notice i call it a culture) and not a religion,why?..coz surely religion dosent advocate killing?...ill reply to each one of you by a new post.
Best wishes. god bless..anon; 12/2/07 12:10 AM
Anonymous said...: Curlycel...
Take the US for example, they're meant to be one of the most "Christian" nations of the world, but it's currently involved in more wars than any country worldwide. Religion has been a sad excuse for wars, but it doesn't matter if you're Jew, or Christian, or Muslim, or what have you, its just bad. - War is wrong, and evil doesn't fix evil! If the US was living the Christian sample as it was meant to they'd "love their enemies, do good to them that hate them, etc. etc. etc." - You can read it for yourself in Matthew 5.

IT saddens me that you use the USA as an exzample!
Heres another scenario,it says in the bible,basically,never let the enenmy get a foothold in israel.
The enenmy being the palestinians/muslims.
As christians we have a vented interest in israel,so thats why the USA is supporting the jews,and fighting radical islam around the world.
Just think curly,if it wasnt for the percieved to be USA/UK CHRISTIAN WEST,YOU WOULD HAVE THE MUSLIMS TRYING TO IMPOSE ISLAMIC SHIARIA LAW ON ALL OFF US!..
ITS called an islamic caliphate,and if god wanted to stop the spread of radical islam how would he do it?....USA/UK MAYBE?
Or he could use the internet,tv newspapers to expose this dangerous culture,oh sorry...i forgot he is!. check these 2 sites out curly..and you just might get the bigger picture! www.jihadwatch.org www.faithfreedom.org Oh i nearly forgot,over 1.7 million people died following that good muslim saddam hussain,remember the 5000 women and kids saddam gassed to death in 1988,i do...
So how would god sort out the meglomaniac saddam?
Mankind was indeed done a favour by his demise...
God is good,isnt he...exposing evil at every turn,using every medium,and utilizing every meduim to fight it...depending on which side of the coin your on. god bless anon ps along with age...comes foresight and wisdom.; 12/2/07 12:27 AM
Anonymous said...: We're not blind. We do see the corruption, the filth, the poverty, the wrong done by other Christians, but we choose to rise above it. We make a conscious decision not to focus on the negative, but to look at the beauty inside people's hearts and that's what gives us the motivation to continue doing what we do.
Whacky..you tackle the corrupt christians head on,showing them the error of there ways....beauty inside Govt nigerian christians hearts dosent extend to the poor christian nigerians...i see.
Take your rose tinted love all glasses off...coz nothing happening in nigeria! god bless anon; 12/2/07 12:34 AM
Anonymous said...: sophia said:
-Na wa o! Wetin you say about my country? I go come again one day for that place. My heart dey for Gwagwalada, and my Warri. I dey like it. Is hot o, but the heat don't change me.

Yes, it's a mess, but it's a beautiful mess. Yes, there are bad parts, but there are good things about even those. Yes, I don't like the way you put things (you know who you are), but I'll love you still. Whether whether you agree with the opinions posted here or not is your choice. My two cents!

(I've lived two and a half years to back up the statement that regardless of what other think, or what you may have heard or seen or wondered about, it's a beautiful country and I've always loved it.)

Another one living with rose tinted love all glasses!,beautifull country thoughts dosent put food on da poor mans table!!...its a corrupt stinking mess..go preach to these thieving christians...tell them not to steal,and maybe if you tell enough people,it might have an affect!...De-NILE is not a river in egypt god bless anon; 12/2/07 12:40 AM
whacky said...: Let's go point by point here:
For starters, Brian never said he doesn't "preach" to the Christians. As missionaries, we try to witness to everyone who crosses our paths, Moslems and Christians alike.
We're all agreed that it's a tragedy the Christian government is stealing from the poor. Nobody is debating that that's wrong. But it's not for you to say who someone should preach to. Remember Jesus said that His message was "for the Gentiles".
Please also note that The Family is doing their part to help those "piss-poor" Christian Nigerians by helping them in whatever way the Lord has shown them. But we can't do everything.
Jesus preached through His sample, not a sermon. The Family is doing what they can to reach both the rich and the poor in Nigeria. But the individuals have to make the choice whether or not to listen. That is something beyond our control.
Perhaps you could pray more for the corrupt government officials. Prayer does more than any preaching ever could. It can change peoples' hearts and help them make the choice to listen. Whereas the preaching might just fall on deaf ears.
Tell me, what are you doing to help the situation in Nigeria? You've got very strong opinions on what should be done and how it should be done... but what are you doing towards it? How much of your talk are you backing up with prayer?

PS: I won't even bother to reply to your comment about the US. It's a whole 'nother subject. Perhaps we can talk about it in a different forum.; 12/2/07 1:00 AM
CurlyCel said...: Ditto to Whacky's comments - especially the "gentiles" comment. - You took the words out of my mouth, girl! (And I definitely won't get into the US subject. I honestly don't have the time, and after this comment I'm going to have to probably pull out as I have a huge backlog of work, so gulps to me. - Sorry Brian, but its a SUPER cool idea. - I love debates.)

All I have to say is, you show me what you're doing to fulfill God's calling to us, anonymous, and THEN I'll take your issues seriously! - Not that you can't give your suggestion of places and people to minister to, we'll take it, but don't come down on us when you're probably not doing much of anything period.

At this point you've just made a repeated point to me that you're a biased person who believes that their opinion is right because they're so much better than others, which in all honesty doesn't hold much of anything.

I've given my life, as has Brian, and Whacky too, to doing what we can to preach the gospel of love, not hate, not war, not even revenge - to rich or poor, saved or not, smart or dumb, etc. etc. etc. - We don't check their credentials.

So hey, you show me what you have to work with - and if you do, cool. - I'm interested.

Until then, cheers! And as I said before, we'll keep doing our part, one heart at a time. - And I'll add that we're living a happier and more fulfilled life with our positive "rosy" glasses. - Its called love for others. You should try it! ;); 12/2/07 7:37 AM
Anonymous said...: It says a lot,that you both forget to take up my point as regards 5000 women and kids(kurdish) that saddam gassed to death,in northern iraq in 1988.
Muslims are too busy fighting each other in the mental east to care what another muslim country does to its people.
And you think that point was lost by god?
Who else is going to stop the spread of radical islam worldwide?..and who is god using to stop it?
Who can god use to stop the christians stealing from the poor in africa......; 12/2/07 10:01 AM
Unknown said...: Anon.....1 question:

How many people did Christ kill while in his public ministry on earth?????

I'm trying to be like HIM!!!!!

As far as who God's gonna use to stop the Christians (& Muslims & seculars, etc. etc.) from stealing from the poor......He's gonna do it Himself!! He's coming back & He's gonna take over the whole world (Read Isaiah 11 & Matthew 24) & rule with a rod of Iron....let's have a little patience.

You wanna stop Islam??? Go make more Christians! That's how the early church did it....by LOVE, even when it killed them. And THAT spread Christianity faster than any war they might have tried to start (like that pathetic little attempt at 'accosting' the Holy Land way back in 12-whatever....the "Crusades". How many did that thing win for Christ??)

Read the Words of Jesus again & see what our duty is....LOVE, LOVE, LOVE!! Judgement is up to God!

Granted, society needs law, goverment & law enforcement, etc. otherwise evil would have no barrier....but that shouldn't have anything to do with war in the name of Christianity.....
Those professing to teach Jesus & be a sample of Him, shouldn't get involved with those things, if they can help it.--Those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

Notice I didn't even get into Saddam, even though you'd asked.....that's way off the subject....back to Nigeria!!!!; 12/2/07 12:25 PM
Unknown said...: But about all the Muslim fundamentalist/terrorist thingie (yikes, I'd better not go on too long....I'm gonna start sounding like CNN...you'd think this was the only thing going on in the world)....Again I point you to Matthew 24...Jesus said that before He came again, the world would be in a state of turmoil.....Nation rising against nation & kingdom against Kingdom...then when the tribulation comes, he wants us to endure to the end...as well as flee to the mountain tops....he didn't mention anything about getting involved in the killing....; 12/2/07 12:31 PM
Anonymous said...: brian whyte said....
But about all the Muslim fundamentalist/terrorist thingie (yikes, I'd better not go on too long....I'm gonna start sounding like CNN...you'd think this was the only thing going on in the world)....Again I point you to Matthew 24...Jesus said that before He came again, the world would be in a state of turmoil.....Nation rising against nation & kingdom against Kingdom...then when the tribulation comes, he wants us to endure to the end...as well as flee to the mountain tops....he didn't mention anything about getting involved in the killing....

No one can doubt that the end times are a coming brian,its biblical and scripture driven.
But in the meantime,do you think god would stand by,knowing the threat posed by the islamic danger,and do nothing about it?.....what kind of god would that be?
I apologize if i come across as an angry christian,i am!,but its a righteous anger.
Im sick to death of the poor getting poorer,the blind robbing the blind,and christians ripping of fellow christians and the poor.!
Nigeria is one of many african countries blemished by endemic corruption.
And then people say,oh the west isnt doing enough to help these poor countries!We are...but once your on the Govt gravy train in africa,youve hit the jackpot.
There was billions of dollar aid in the past poured into africa,no one need have starved,but they did,and quite simply because christian/muslim leadership in these countries thought you could be a religious person,and still steal from less fortunates than yourself.
I wish nigeria was flooded with honest missionaries,whom had it as there mandate to say to christians there,look guys,you proclaim to be men of god,and followers of the 10 comandments,but why do you steal?..
Whilst god gives us a mandate to preach to everyone,dosent he also give us a brain,so we can help a brother see the error of his ways!....; 13/2/07 12:15 AM
whacky said...: Neither of us forgot to mention about the Moslems. We chose not to because it's a very big subject and one that we will not be able to cover here.
(By the way, you still haven't answered the question of what you're doing to help the situation in Nigeria.)

Did it ever occur to you that the Moslems worship the same God we do? They just call him by a different name. Many people have a mistaken idea of the Moslems and Islam... but Jesus loves them just as much as He loves the people in the US or anywhere else in the world.

The problem you address of religious people stealing from the poor and thinking they can get away with it is not limited to Africa only. It's rampant worldwide, including the US & the UK.

Don't you think the Lord sees when nations like the US burn their excess food in order to keep prices high, leaving millions of people starving to death? Do you think He endorses that?

And while God may have given us a brain, He also tells us that "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts higher than your thoughts."
What may seem "right" to us could very likely be wrong in God's eyes. Who are we to judge?; 13/2/07 9:21 PM
Anonymous said...: whacky said...
Neither of us forgot to mention about the Moslems. We chose not to because it's a very big subject and one that we will not be able to cover here.
You need to look at the wider picture dear!
(By the way, you still haven't answered the question of what you're doing to help the situation in Nigeria.)
Ive emailed over the last few months,all the uk churches that send out missionaries to africa,asking that they remind said missionaries to reinforce the 10 commandments to any in high authority that they meet!..
Did it ever occur to you that the Moslems worship the same God we do? They just call him by a different name. Many people have a mistaken idea of the Moslems and Islam... but Jesus loves them just as much as He loves the people in the US or anywhere else in the world.
Muslims worship allah,and his messenger the prophet muhammad.
The prophet muhammad had a 9 year old wife!,he was a murderous,bloodthirsty evil dog,the koran,surah,and hadith testify to his depraved lust,and murderous actions.
Allah is the divine god for all muslims,jesus was acknowledged as a prophet by muslims,but ask any muslim,and they will not say they worship to the same god.
Jesus does indeed love all...he just hates the sin..suicide bombers and the like!
Remember this wacky..not all muslims are suicide bombers and terrorists!...but all the terrorists and suicide bombers seem to be muslim!
More and more people see radical islam in action on there tv screen everyday...and yet you say we have the wrong idea!...duhhhhhhhhh.
WWW.JIHADWATCH.ORG
The problem you address of religious people stealing from the poor and thinking they can get away with it is not limited to Africa only. It's rampant worldwide, including the US & the UK.
WHACKY WHAT PLANET YOU LIVING ON?..corruption in africa is culture driven,and dished out by those in power!..if you do it in the uk/usa theres a good chance you will go to jail.
In africa you wont,a bribe will get you off the hook,and the africans know this.
The last uk pastor ive heard of being jailed is GILBERT DEYA from kenya,he who is currently sitting in londons belmarsh jail awaiting extradition to kenya...youve heard of the miricale baby scandal?
3 other recent london scandals in the church,also invole african pastors....using the collection plate as there personal piggy bank.
And offcourse there was the great jim baker in USA..guess what whacky..all these people got jailed.
Don't you think the Lord sees when nations like the US burn their excess food in order to keep prices high, leaving millions of people starving to death? Do you think He endorses that?
The usa give the highest amount of any dollar aid to the worlds poorest countrys,a lot of the surplus food they burn is gm modified,and UN dont allow gm modified food to go to poor/any people.
And while God may have given us a brain, He also tells us that "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts higher than your thoughts."
What may seem "right" to us could very likely be wrong in God's eyes. Who are we to judge?
I state well known facts whacky,if every christian took your attitude as regards not making judgement...then piss-all would never get done.
If we is gonna tell people we are followers of yashua,then let people see us as a true reflection of yashua,in our words,works,and love for others.
But lets correct our brothers who are sinning,show them the error of there ways..as per bible.
lETS NOT BURY OUR HEAD IN THE SAND..most non christians in nigeria,take it for granted christians are corrupt.....and thats plain sad.; 14/2/07 2:05 AM
Anonymous said...: Do i hear an amen!...jeeez i should run for president!...lol; 14/2/07 2:11 AM
Anonymous said...: To brian and whacky...im sure you probably know who is writing this,and ill tell you why ive contributed to a debate on brians blog.
For many years ive observed the situation as regards the poor in africa,and the christians/muslims and pan-african corruption.
Nothing has changed,but i hope that others who read this blog,feel inspired to maybe go there,and help make that difference.
I tell it as i see it,i make no apoligies for that,ill stick my neck out for injustices being perpatrated in the name of jesus.

Both you guys give the worldwide internet surfer an insight into your missionary work.
Have you ever thought of the internet as a continuation of that work?
As whacky has said(on her blog),a lot of family blogs,are just pure rubbish,that dont merit more than a 5 min look,i think all family blogs should be used to explain to the world,your role in life serving jesus,as a missionary.
The family has recieved much bad publicity in the past,to put this right,you need to share what your doing for the lord,everything else is secondary.
A missionaries job is 24/7 and that includes blogs.
Many family blogs have links to other family blogs,you go from whackys blog,to another blog that dosent witness to anyone.
It didnt take a clever man to find your blogs either,a link to them is on ex-family.org
point is...please pass the word around to share more about what your missionary work is all about.

By doing that,others may come to know the lord,feel inspired to get involved,and the family 'KNOCKERS' will have nothing to talk about.
god bless the both of you,and the family...; 14/2/07 2:38 AM
whacky said...: point taken; 14/2/07 3:11 AM
Unknown said...: To last anonymous: No, I don't know who you are, but thank you for participating in the debate. I appreciate you sharing your opinion!

Ok, I'm gonna wrap up my thoughts on this & let others continue....I'm still hoping to hear from new debators on this topic & find out how everyone else feels about the orginal issue (WHETHER I'M RIGHT IN SHOWING THE SIDE OF NIGERIA THAT I DO OR NOT!!!--Why the debate originally started!)
After that I'm gonna close this debate, as we're now officially going in circles....

My final thoughts:

--I agree that NG is corrupt to the core & that I should preach honesty & fairness to whichever people in power I come in contact with.

--MEANWHILE...I'm gonna continue improving the lives of every individual I can, & see everyone & the situation around me through the eyes of LOVE (or Rose colored glasses, as Anon put it)...instead of waiting around for corruption to stop while doing a bunch of "preaching". To see how I do that, simply stay tuned to this blog...

--I copy a sample of Jesus as per how he lived His life when He was on earth as well as how he speaks to me personally every day in prophecy. He said (and I quote)

"LOVE YOUR ENEMIES"--Mat. 5:44

"FORGIVE (REPEATEDLY)"--Mat. 18:22

"PRAY FOR YOUR PERSECUTORS"--Mat. 5:44

(Also see Mat. 21:41 for how Jesus will personally deal with the wicked when He returns)

As far as high ideals & nation-wide/large-scale anti-corruption schemes/going to war with the entire Muslim world....I'll leave these things up to Anon, who, while he talks a lot, I'm not sure of all that he's practically doing in an everyday setting to win souls & spread the message(I'd be interested to know, Anon.....let us know....although, yes, you're doing it right here on these comments, so GBY for that).

--The orginal question as to how many people Jesus (or his first Apostles, or other famous missionaries, I'll add) killed, was never answered, Anon????

--Mr.(or Ms.) pro-America, pro-Jew/anti-Muslim.....I'll be posting some more things that you might find interesting!!! Stay tuned. If you give me an e-mail address, I'll send direct...

--LASTLY: Don't bother running for president, Anon...No doubt, we'd have another "Christian" George Bush type on our hands, going around starting wars with countries half-way across the world (for their oil), meddling & killing more innocents (since 2 wrongs make a right) & then professing to be so "good"/heroic at the same time & giving Jesus a terrible name.

P.S. Could you do one thing for me, Anon? Please don't mix your comments with the others in the same box, unless you differentiate between your & the other person's comments by either spaces, or italics, or something. That last one you put up mixed with Anj's comments was hard to tell who was who. We're gonna confuse the readers. Tx!; 14/2/07 6:23 PM
Anonymous said...: I am a Missionary in the Family who Brain happens to be visiting here in Nigeria, I have been here for the past two and a half years and have spent about six years total in Africa, I have been to most countries in West Africa, and have seen both Christian and Moslem governments, religious leaders, etc... the problem Anon has nothing to do with religious orientation, it has much more to do with cultural mindsets that have been passed down for the last thousand some odd years, democracy is a recent development in Africa and like any country that has a major shift in government it takes a while for the kinks to be ironed out, what is called corruption in Africa is not really considered corruption by the people, at least not in the same sense that we see it as. We Americans or westerns who have the privilege of 2000+ years of experimenting in democracy often take for granted the struggles it took to get to where we are at today. Since we haven’t lived in any era except the one we are in now we don’t give much thought to the corruption that existed for centuries past only in the last 60 years or so has corruption become lessened and to be honest I am sure corruption would still be rampant in all countries if there wasn’t the system of control and the proverbial "watch dogs" set in place by governments in the past. You forget Anon that Nigeria has made strides in overcoming their problems with corruption, an example of which is the paying off of their foreign debt and building up their foreign reserve to about 38 billion dollars, pretty good when you compare with the US which has more then 3 trillion dollars in foreign debt... but that is a different subject and I wont get off on that. The point I am trying to make is that Nigerians are still a people and culture that are inexperienced in the ethics that come with Christianity and Democracy, 100 years ago paying money to the chief when you committed a crime was considered normal, and to think that with only 7 years or so of real democracy they will have stamped out old cultural habits that they have had for thousands of years is just not realistic. Living here I would love to see corruption stamped out and money actually going where it is supposed to be but I know that I probably wont ever see it in my life time (except of course when the Lord returns). But I know I can try to plant a seed here or there. There is a story in the Family that we have all sort of grown up on, it is about a young man who went on a walking tour of southern France during the early twenties right after world war 1, it was a very desolate place as during the war much landscape was destroyed and there wasn’t funding or time to properly care for the forests and fauna and what not. During his tour however he came across an old shepherd who he happened to stay with for a couple nights, and every night he noticed that the old shepherd would sort different nuts and seeds, and every day when he would take his flock of sheep out he would plant the various nuts and seeds, when the young man queried him on this he told him he was planting trees. Now the young man was a bit of a cynic and some what condescendingly told the old shepherd that he was an old man and he shouldn’t be wasting his time planting trees as he would probably die and never see changes if changes ever even came. The old shepherd just smiled and told him that one day someone would and that was enough for him. So the young man went on his way and forgot pretty much about the old shepherd. However fifteen years or so later he returned to find the whole area transformed. The forest had started to re grow and animals and birds were returning, he looked for the old shepherd again and found him in his hut still sorting nuts and seeds and still planting them. They talked and the gentlemen was impressed by one thing in it all, he realized that you cannot change the whole world by yourself but you can change a little something of your own, you can change your immediate world just by doing something small every day just by planting one or two seeds every day in the proverbial ground of peoples hearts and in doing that you can change much more then you think. The point of that little anecdote is that we are changing things here even if it is going to take my entire life time then we will continue to change things here slowly but surely, if I can reach one person and he in turn can change another then we can start a chain reaction and one day we can change the whole world. But what we need is patience to see it through; Adoniram Judson who was a missionary to Burma laboured eight years before he had one convert. One last thing about the Family is that our primary calling from the Lord as missionaries is that of training people to be missionaries, my personal goal this year is to have 300 students that we will be training on how to be missionaries and to reach others. We have a whole ministry that we use to reach the rich and upper class of people we have politicians over to our house for dinner on a regular basis and most of the people we minister to are people who are in a position to change this country because they are the most important people you can reach. We do minister to the poor as well though because that is part of being a Christian and a missionary. There having said all that now I wanted to touch on the subject of the US and Iraq and this whole mess the world is in. First about the Jews whether they are still God's only people is a subject of a much broader theological debate, Paul through out the new testament argued that only Christians are God's chosen people whether they are of a Jewish ethnic origin or not. Jews did demand the crucifixion of Jesus saying that his blood should be upon them and upon their children... which should end the debate. Why Christians defend the Jews as God's people when they themselves spit upon the Name of Jesus and call him the false messiah and are probably the most adamantly opposed people to the spread of the gospel goes a bit beyond me.
About the US and Iraq now everyone can argue about who is right forever and they will never reach any sort of agreement because at the end of the day they are both wrong. We Americans are wrong because we have a moral responsibility to not use stopping terrorists as an excuse to be securing oil for our future generations to come, and Saddam Hussein was wrong because well he was a mass murderer, who did all sorts of terrible things to his people, (although that didn’t stop the US from supporting him during the Iraq/Iran war). Saying the US is in Iraq with pure and good intentions is seeing things with "rosy America does no wrong glasses" if that were true the US would be in China fighting to oust their government which supports killing babies at birth who are born to parents who have one child already, who have killed millions of Christians, and continues to be the one country that is against any and all religious freedom, instead of creating a huge trade deficit with them and selling out our own people to them in favour of their cheaper goods. Anyway I am trying to answer every question in one post but I will try to continue with answering questions after the weekend is up. Sorry about my disjointed spelling and grammar I am doing this very quickly and not really proof reading it properly. And one last question for you Anon, is what is your point really, I am a little hazy on what you are trying to say is it that Nigeria is bad because the leaders are bad, then in answer to that "welcome to reality" this happens every where. If your question is why are we not reaching the leaders of the country, well we do and we are trying it just takes time and planting seeds, and about Iraq/US/Israel well that is something else entirely, cheers good night it is late and I need to sleep...
PS my name is Richard by the way; 14/2/07 11:51 PM
Anonymous said...: Sorry I am new to this and I didnt put my name up there it is Richard and not the Anon, who is the object of the debate put forth in my post; 14/2/07 11:52 PM
Anonymous said...: Its getting hot!.i love when you guys come up with your concpiracy theories as regards iraq!(waiting for the 'it was the joos'retort.
1.7 million muslims died following saddam and his ill fated jaunts,muslims countries dont want to sort out other muslim countries,so the good olde usa/uk is left to clear up the shit!.
USA and UK are worlds no 1 richest economy,and 5th respectivley!,we can afford to pay for our oil,and we do worldwide.
When have we stole oil from other countries before?
No guys,im afraid that the reason the usa/uk is in iraq,is to teach the muslim world a lesson,you come to the west,you plot against the west,you bomb the west,and we will take your country!...we did...bottom line..tough luck.
Dont you know what the aims are of an islamic caliphate?..
This is for brian,my eyesight is getting bad,i need glasses,but at the moment i dont have the funds,my spelling is terrible,my paragraphs are non exzistent,but whilst i will wake up tommorow a handsome man,you)on the other hand) will remain ugly!....lollllllllllllll.; 15/2/07 12:40 AM
Anonymous said...: Wow,theres a few things in the mix here to debate!
Ill start by refuting brians points one by one:

--I agree that NG is corrupt to the core & that I should preach honesty & fairness to whichever people in power I come in contact with.

preaching to the converted,remind them of(thou shalt not steal).

--MEANWHILE...I'm gonna continue improving the lives of every individual I can, & see everyone & the situation around me through the eyes of LOVE (or Rose colored glasses, as Anon put it)...instead of waiting around for corruption to stop while doing a bunch of "preaching". To see how I do that, simply stay tuned to this blog...

Were all ears dearie!

As far as high ideals & nation-wide/large-scale anti-corruption schemes/going to war with the entire Muslim world....I'll leave these things up to Anon, who, while he talks a lot, I'm not sure of all that he's practically doing in an everyday setting to win souls & spread the message(I'd be interested to know, Anon.....let us know....although, yes, you're doing it right here on these comments, so GBY for that).

I do as much as my income allows me to do,i contribute to internet forums,i witness to muslims,and christians,and email various power making bodies as regards worldwide corruption.

--The orginal question as to how many people Jesus (or his first Apostles, or other famous missionaries, I'll add) killed, was never answered, Anon????

Many were killed in the early days by the followers of yashua,the crusades cited as being a major killing spree in his name(kicking muslims outta mid east!).
Point is brian..have you heard of the term 'christian suicide bombers'?.....

--LASTLY: Don't bother running for president, Anon...No doubt, we'd have another "Christian" George Bush type on our hands, going around starting wars with countries half-way across the world (for their oil), meddling & killing more innocents (since 2 wrongs make a right) & then professing to be so "good"/heroic at the same time & giving Jesus a terrible name.

How patriotic you are brian,an american living in nigeria,and calling G DUBYA an idiot!
Bit like biting the hand that fed yaa.
George never started the war,did george tell iraq to invade kuwait?..did george write in the quoran..(take not jews or christians as thy friends)?
Did george also write in the koran,jews and infidels...are monkeys and pigs?
Infidel are derogarty muslim word for non believer!..as is kaffur!.

Did you know brian,that the prophet muhammad was the worlds first slave trader?..he had somalian slaves,and in the surahs,refers to them as raisin-heads!

Point here is brian,here we have an evil murderous culture(islam)trying to establish an islamic caliphate,fighting each other to see who has the best brand of islam(sunni,shia,wahibbi)and killing each other at the drop of a hat.

Muslim/arab nations are always in strife!
Who would god use to stop that strife?...
Or would god let the islamic genocides(dafur)just go on and on?

Bottom line,were always sorting out arab strife,coz muslims are incapable/un-willing to sort out there own messes!.

Ps, gas prices went up 3 times in the uk in the last 12 months!,where is all that iraqi oil your talking about?

Along with age...comes wisdom.

'God grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change
The courage to change the things i can
And the wisdom to know the difference; 15/2/07 1:13 AM
whacky said...: Anon, don't you think you're letting this debate get just a tad bit personal? Perhaps not all your comments in reference to us as individuals are necessary.

The Western world has often pillaged poorer nations, sending in troops to help "restore order" while taking control of various resources. The US/UK may have freed Iraq from Saddam, but look at what they've plunged the country into - even more chaos, fighting and death.

We don't necessarily agree with everything in Islam, but at the same time it's not necessary to bash Muslims everywhere. There is the extremist faction of Muslims, but you have that in almost every religion.

Anon, you're just going to have to accept that we will preach the message the Lord shows us for today to the people He shows us to. If the Lord tells me that my job should be helping the poor and to trust Him to take care of the rich, then I will follow Him rather than listen to what you think I should do. And visa versa. For now, you'll just have to accept that, no matter your personal opinion.

You may not hear of "Christian suicide bombers", but you certainly hear a lot of Christian countries going to war on a completely false basis, murdering just as many (if not more) as their "evil opponents".

I'm an American, and like thousands of my fellow countrymen, we think George Bush is an idiot and we're not ashamed to say it! I guess you'll have to take that one up with almost an entire nation.

At the end of the day, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Even if the Moslems were all as bad as you say they are, that doesn't give the US the right to go in and slaughter millions more innocents! The Lord can "punish" and "correct" them on His own. I don't recall George Bush ever invading Iraq because the Lord has directly told him to.
In fact, he deliberately lied to the world and conjured up "evidence" in order to support his war. The simple truth is that war is big money in the US. If you need money, just go to war. I don't think any of that is behaving like a good Christian.

Perhaps you should try to look at things from the reverse viewpoint. Christians have had God's Word and instruction for hundreds of years, and yet they still flagrantly disobey and disregard what the Lord has told them. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the Lord is using Islam and the Moslems to punish the Christians for the error of their ways?

I know that's a tough pill to swallow... but it might help you see how they view things from their side. Some of them have never had the truth of God's Word. Most don't know much about Christianity, but they do their best to follow God as they've been taught. That's a sample Christians can learn from.; 15/2/07 7:33 AM
whacky said...: well said, Richard! You covered almost everything there! And Anon, it would be nice to have a clarification like Richard asked for.; 15/2/07 7:39 AM
Anonymous said...: WHACKY SAID:
Anon, don't you think you're letting this debate get just a tad bit personal? Perhaps not all your comments in reference to us as individuals are necessary.

You need to look at the wider picture,and take it in context.
Ive always believed if somethings good,and its coming from god,then sods law dictates it will be seen by others in a godly light!,you were no doubt re-ferring to the islamic dictate 'raisin-heads'.
Its ofensive i know,not written by me either,but your the one telling me,that ive misunderstood islam!.
What is there for me to be so ill-informed about the rasin head statement?
Its one of many islamic statements as regards the infidel,non-believer,offensive to you and i,yes!.....godly light...getting it whacky?

The Western world has often pillaged poorer nations, sending in troops to help "restore order" while taking control of various resources. The US/UK may have freed Iraq from Saddam, but look at what they've plunged the country into - even more chaos, fighting and death.

Talking past tense there i see whacky!
5000 women and kids,gassed to death,by saddam as an act of revenge against the kurds.
And he tried to invade 2 other muslim countries,one successfully,not the most stabe stand up guy in the world,was our saddam.
Muslims un-willing to reighn him in,and it would only have been a matter of time before he used nuclear bombs on others,i mean,he had previous for killing en-masse,So mankind was indeed done a favour by his demise.
If god saw what saddam was upto..dont you think he would have brought him to justice for his crimes against humanity?
Again...ill refer to the word...godly light!..
And here we have a situation in iraq now,of muslims killing each other at the drop of a hat,basically jostling for position as regards who has the best brand of islam!
What an excellent opportunity for god to expose this false,evil culture!...as we see on our tv screens everyday.
Godly light whacky..you making the connection yet?

Anon, you're just going to have to accept that we will preach the message the Lord shows us for today to the people He shows us to. If the Lord tells me that my job should be helping the poor and to trust Him to take care of the rich, then I will follow Him rather than listen to what you think I should do. And visa versa. For now, you'll just have to accept that, no matter your personal opinion.

Im not talking about the rich,im talking about corrupt christians.

You may not hear of "Christian suicide bombers", but you certainly hear a lot of Christian countries going to war on a completely false basis, murdering just as many (if not more) as their "evil opponents".

USA/UK and europe are percieved to be christian countries,and yes i believe its a war against the evil of islam.
But who else can god use to keep these radical muslim countries in order?
Whats an islamic caliphate whacky?..
One wonders by your comments whacky,if you feel that we are all misunderstanding islam....are you as a christian advocating this evil culture?
Who,s side are you on whacky?

I'm an American, and like thousands of my fellow countrymen, we think George Bush is an idiot and we're not ashamed to say it! I guess you'll have to take that one up with almost an entire nation.

WWW.JIHADWATCH.ORG go learn about the aims of radical islam here whacky,as ive said before,who else can god use,to keep the muslims in line?
Do you americans always bite the hand that feeds you?
Im very proud of my identity,and all that entails.

At the end of the day, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Even if the Moslems were all as bad as you say they are, that doesn't give the US the right to go in and slaughter millions more innocents! The Lord can "punish" and "correct" them on His own. I don't recall George Bush ever invading Iraq because the Lord has directly told him to.
In fact, he deliberately lied to the world and conjured up "evidence" in order to support his war. The simple truth is that war is big money in the US. If you need money, just go to war. I don't think any of that is behaving like a good Christian

War is big money in us!!!...duhh its costing the us billions of dollars to help re build iraq.

Not all muslims are bad,so dont put words in my mouth,but ask yourself this whacky,how is the civillised world supposed to see suicide bombings,be-headings,and the like?
Have you read the quoran whacky?
Do you know what the aims of an ISLAMIC CALIPHATE is?
Can you tell me how to react to this islamic statement?..jews and christians...being described as 'MONKEYS AND PIGS'...???
SEEN IN A GODLY LIGHT,YOU MAKING THAT CONNECTION YET WHACKY?...

Perhaps you should try to look at things from the reverse viewpoint. Christians have had God's Word and instruction for hundreds of years, and yet they still flagrantly disobey and disregard what the Lord has told them. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the Lord is using Islam and the Moslems to punish the Christians for the error of their ways

JUST WHAT SIDE ARE YOU ON?,you say your a christian,and now your pro-claiming your un-dying love for the poor misunderstood muslims?...what part of suicide bombing am i to interpit as to be misunderstood? ..personally?
Suicide bombing isnt normally seen in a godly light whacky..

Wonders did the 57 people who were blown up on londons underground see suicide bombing in a godly light..or am i getting the wrong end of the stick here?

I know that's a tough pill to swallow... but it might help you see how they view things from their side. Some of them have never had the truth of God's Word. Most don't know much about Christianity, but they do their best to follow God as they've been taught. That's a sample Christians can learn from.

Suicide bombing,limb amputation,clitoris removal in somalia,women treated like dogs,etc etc...which part of the picture dont we get whacky?
Godly light whacky?..you getting it yet?

Whacky,richard and brian,there may be another reason why africa is in so much strife,and if you know your bible,then im sure you will know what i am referring to...im all ears.!; 15/2/07 2:47 PM
Anonymous said...: Richard,what a nice level piece of writing!,your not far of the mark either.
Africans practise corruption as a culture thing..even the christians use this excuse?
Dont they read or understand the 10 commandments?
Richard,can you be a nice chap and disect your statement into re-adble paragrahs?
It will be easier for me with my poor eyesight to reply to then.
Godly light is my aim richard...; 15/2/07 2:55 PM
Anonymous said...: woah! i was just hit with one of the latest statements that anon said, saying that Muhammad was the first slave trader???? :O as in the first one to ever trade with slaves?? how come that Muhammad was born in the 6th century, and during the big empires before Jesus was born, had slaves? to name a few, Rome, Babylon, Egipt, Persia... all of them had slaves, so to say that Muhammad was the first slave trader... is a bit innacurate, now, about the Quoran, the problem we have here is the interpretation each one makes of it, almost every muslim cleric has it's own interpretation and adapt it to their way of thinking and purpose, but if i should remind you, the very first years of the Islam, when Muhammad and his followers were expelled from his clan and went to Abisinia (nowadays called Ethiopia) wich by that time was a christian kingdom, and they had him in their midst and lived in peace and happyness, no hate, and yes they did say that the God of the christians and the God of the muslims was the same God, even that of the jews! the problems with the jews started when they rejected Muhammad and didn't accept him as a prophet of God, but you know what? they even prayed in the direction of the temple in Jerusalem at the begining!! and later on changed it to the Meca.

and about that wife of only 9 years old, i must say that the sources from wich they get that information are very contradicting saying some times that she's 9 and others that she's 12-14 at the time she married, though if you go and make a research on the topic, you'll find that from other more trustworthy sources she was actually 19-20 when she married him, but anyway, my main point on this comment is to show how in the begining islam wasn't as you see it nowadays, but through the years they pervert and twist everything, the true studious of the quoran and those that trully follow it are not those that call us christians dogs and that make war with us, but rather those clerics that adapt religion to themselves, and their own gain, you could say the same is happening to those christian preachers in nigeria that you were talking about. after the years, the teachings of any religion get twisted and perverted by those that are supposed to teach them, and it not only happens in islam, u cannot eny that it doesn't happen in christian religion too... for god's sake.. they're even ordaining gay priests in the anglican church!; 15/2/07 6:41 PM
Anonymous said...: Hadith
Collectors

Aisha — 9 year-old bride
Sahih Bukhari

Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151

Sahih Muslim

Chapter 10: IT IS PERMISSIBLE FOR THE FATHER TO GIVE THE HAND OF HIS DAUGHTER IN MARRIAGE EVEN WHEN SHE IS NOT FULLY GROWN UP.

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him. Book 8, Number 3309.

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. Book 8, Number 3310

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Book 8, Number 3311

Sunan Dawud

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. Book 41, Number 4915:

Narrated AbuUsamah: The tradition mentioned above (No. 4915) has also been transmitted by AbuUsamah in a similar manner through a different chain of narrators. This version has: "With good fortune. " She (Umm Ruman) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and redressed me. No one came to me suddenly except the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) in the forenoon. So they entrusted me to him. Book 41, Number 4916:

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair were up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine. Book 41, Number 4917

As an older man of fifty-plus years, Muhammad married a mere child of six years old and co-habited with her when she was 9 years old. As quoted above, the most trusted collections of hadiths establish the authenticity of this oral tradition. But still, Western Muslims are embarrassed by these hadiths. Sometimes they use a Weak hadith defense to excuse Muhammad's child marriage.

At other times, they use an Arabic culture defense by claiming that no one has the right to judge Oriental culture by Occidental norms. Now, this is a strange defense to make, since Muslims frequently criticized Western culture as being morally decadent. If another culture cannot be morally evaluated, then other cultures must not be judged as morally decadent. But, this conclusion is not acceptable to Muslims, since they argue that an Islamic culture is the better culture. So, we must conclude that cultures may be evaluated morally, or that, someone is hypocritically judging others while not permitting themselves to be judged by the same standard.

However, if hypocrisy is not a good alternative, then it is concluded that cultures may be evaluated morally. In fact, it is permissible, and even desirable, to have moral discussions on cultural issues. Moral discussions on cultural issues occur in many different cultures.

So, the problem of Muhammad marrying a child cannot be defended on Eastern cultural grounds. The issue remains as to whether or not Muhammad acted rightly in marrying a six year old. Certainly, it is wrong according to the natural order of Allah's creation. In fact, many nations of the world list such behavior as a crime against nature. Thus, it must be concluded that Muhammad committed a grave moral sin against the moral order of Allah's creation. And, his behavior is a reprehensible example for others to follow. It is tragic to read news reports of old men marrying children in some Islamic countries, because they seek to follow the example of Muhammad who married a child. Muhammad had such an interest in fondling young girls, he criticized even the lawful marriage union of two grown adults.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron' He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?' Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17.

In the classic history of "The Life of Muhammad" (Sirat Rasul Allah) by Ibn Ishaq, there is an account in which Muhammad expressed a marital interest in a crawling baby. This event seems to have occurred around the time of the Battle of of Badr which would have made Muhammad approximately 55 years old. He had married Ayesha two years earlier, when he was 53 years of age.

(Suhayli, ii. 79: In the riwaya of Yunus I. I. recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu'lFadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, 'If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.' But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. 'Abdu'l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubab...1

So, Muhammad's interest in young girls extended beyond Ai'sha ('Ayesha). Why would anyone think that Muhammad's sexual interest in babies be "the timeless expression of the Will of Allah?" How does such a prurient desire support Muhammad's claim to be a prophet of Allah? Such a desire by an old man is contrary to nature, and it is a perversion against the moral order of Allah's universe.

An example of one of the problems of child marriages: "Sierra Leone's silent sufferers. Most commonly the head of the foetus is too large to enter the birth canal, and presses the bladder against the bony side wall of the pelvis. Crushed in that way over a period of days, the tissue dies and a hole is created. From that moment the women are never free of the trickle of urine. Fatmata's experience was as typical as it was catastrophic. She was rejected by her husband, and by her family. Regarded as unclean - and by some as jinxed - she was driven out of her village. ...

They included 15-year-old Sia Foday who was married off by her family at the age of nine and was quickly pregnant. Sia - small for her age - was only 10 when she tried to give birth and ended up incontinent. Another of the women, Aminata Kanda, said she only survived because her children collected firewood to sell and helped her tend a small garden. "Life was really horrible for me. When I was in this sickness the urine was coming non-stop... the odour of the urine is horrible... that is why even my husband wouldn't allow me to stay in his house," she says."

Yet, according to Islam, Muhammad is the perfection of humanity and the prototype of the most wonderful human conduct. He married a nine year-old and leaves an enduring legacy for old Muslim men to fulfill their carnal desires contrary to natural law and to the life-long devastation of young girls.; 15/2/07 7:28 PM
Anonymous said...: Brian said:
"--LASTLY: Don't bother running for president, Anon...No doubt, we'd have another "Christian" George Bush type on our hands, going around starting wars with countries half-way across the world (for their oil), meddling & killing more innocents (since 2 wrongs make a right) & then professing to be so "good"/heroic at the same time & giving Jesus a terrible name."

Fantastic Brian! You are an inspiration! GBY for all you do there in Nigeria.; 15/2/07 9:04 PM
whacky said...: Actually, Anon, I was referring to your statements towards Brian and others of us commenting on here.; 15/2/07 11:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Seems very few of you know anything about islam!,and i happen to know very few of you watch tv!
And here you are giving me your conspiracy theories,but no facts!...; 16/2/07 12:26 AM
Anonymous said...: whacky said:

Actually, Anon, I was referring to your statements towards Brian and others of us commenting on here.

Actually whacky,where i come from,you were taught allways to get straight to the point,no messing about.(some find that offensive)
You guys talk a good talk,but i think your not really clued up as to whats going on in the world today.
Id like to think i keep myself upto date on various world events,and ive witnessed too many that do too.
Whats the point of being a missionary if you cant relate to others,and know what there talking about?.
Meeting people at there level,not yours!
This debate has turned into a points scoring match for me,i never wanted that,and i seem to up against an ill informed audience here,americans being anti-american!.
Ill bow out,but my convictions remain intact!...i wish you all well...god bless; 16/2/07 1:06 AM
Anonymous said...: To anonymous:

pretending to be wise, they have turned into fools - prefect quote for you
because they have rejected the truth God will send them strong delusions that they will believe a lie (in 2 Thessalonians 2)
you're only seeing one side of the coin - the truth that you believe and hold so strongly to is only one side of it. it's quite obvious that you aren't willing to hear any other side and so you have closed your ears and hardened your heart
did you notice that none of them ever said islam was right? but despite them feeling that islam isn't right they still love the people and are willing to give their lives for them
to me that's a better sample of christ and christianity then all of your self-righteous bullshit that you've been posting. you may be right on some things but your attitude is what makes moslems resent christians and the west.
you are the only person who thinks you have scored points on this debate. to me you have simply shown how bigoted you really are.
god bless you missionaries for what you're doing. brian and whacky, there will always be people who think they know better than you and better than God but NEVER let them stop you from doing what God has told you to do. as long as you are hearing from him and not doing anything that goes against the bible you are in the right place!; 16/2/07 1:44 PM
Anonymous said...: Just a last comment from Richard, to Anon, I have read most of the Koran and I am aware that Islam is not the pure or good religion it makes it self out to be no one is defending that, before you got all pissy about this whole debate and kept changing subjects and not answering any of are questions accusing us of putting words in your mouth when, in fact you are guilty of that by saying we are defending Islam, I completely agree with you that Islam is not the right religion to follow and as we are a christian group and not a muslim group that should speak for it self.
Though we are entitled to believe what we want no one here hates americans and I speaking for my self am patriotic but that doesnt mean I love the current administration in the white house, they are making a mess of things this is something we see as we are all living out side the US and see what the world's reaction to the current policies put forth by Bush. One of the things that make America a great country is freedom of speach and we are entitled to speak freely in the intrest of this debate coming to a close I suggest we try to find common ground and see what needs to be done to change the world in order that the world's problems be solved, not argue about whether or not Mohammed was responsible for giving VVF to young girls at the time.
And one last thing is that your ripping off a quote from Winston Churchhill and using it on Brian was off I believe that is what Whacky was trying to say, no need to get nasty and unoriginal with people who have different views then you. I am sure you have alot of conviction for what you believe and I respect that, even if it differs from mine, but you need to also respect that there are people in the world that believe differently then you, that is part of being a missionary finding common ground and going on from there.
When you started this debate you accused Brian of not reaching the people who needed to be reached, you were right in your theory but wrong about us not reaching them, we are it is part of our ministry, but it is always good to be reminded by someone of what are job is here. Somewhere along the way you got sidetracked with Islam and what not, I am sorry about that but seeing as there is no ending this we might as well just leave it. (although you are not making much sense in all this as no one once said that Islam is a good relgion that we should follow).
Lastly about the US being in Iraq, if half the US, and basically the rest of the world save half of England agree that the primary intrest of the US is oil in Iraq then I think there is some weight to it. Dont you find it odd with so much atrocity in the world (i.e the situation in Darfur, the situation in Congo, the problems in China, the problems in Saudi Arabia, etc...) that the only country the current US administration is focusing on happens to be a large oil producer? That is all that is being put forth to you as a question one which you have sidestepped and not answered, so please if you have the energy to respond to this and answer my question as to what is the Logic behind the US being in Iraq because being there to set Saddam straight because he was so quote bad, is not really liable as there are plenty of other situations (like the ones listed above), in the world now a days that are much worse congo for example has had war for the last 20 years with more then 3,000,000 people dead as a result and I certainly dont see the US there now... I gota run this is my last post I will leave what ever you say and accept that you have different views as that is you perogative but please try to be understanding of people who think differently then you do and try to find the common ground we have in that we all love the Lord and accept Jesus as our saviour and are intrested in fufilling the great commision set out for us by the Lord in Mark 16:15, thanks Anon sorry if my writting is without to much punctuation/paragraphs, I am writting this and watching my baby daughter as well and she is a handful so I dont have much time to make it all perfect.; 16/2/07 6:09 PM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; 17/2/07 5:46 AM
Unknown said...: @ that last comment:

Anon was getting a bit low & resorting to name calling & insult-throwing. I'd had enough...

Anon, feel free to comment without the labels & names & I'll leave every single one.

This post closes tomorrow, everyone. The number of comments will stay as it is after midnight tomorrow....as any further ones will be deleted.

Anon, try saying something new now, as opposed to repeating yourself again & again about the Koran....if you hate it so much, quit quoting it....

Stop & ask yourself what Jesus would want you to say, even as you're commenting on these issues....are you 'praying without ceasing' & 'setting a watch, O Lord before my mouth'?

See ya!

P.S. I don't understand how you could even take personal offence to any of this, when no one even KNOWS WHO YOU ARE!!!! HELLO! Your name is not being "shamed", cuz we don't even know it.....lighten up a little...it's just a debate!!!; 17/2/07 3:23 PM
Anonymous said...: Lets get back on topic,sticking up for your fellow missionaries there i see brian!..rather than answer any points raised:

Uganda: Rakai Parents Held Over UPE
OVER fifteen parents in Rakai had to be imprisoned before they could accept to take their children to school.

New Vision
Uganda: Son Tortured for Wetting Bed
THE Police in Kyotera town have arrested a man who tied a brick on the manhood of to his nine-year-old son for wetting his bed.

New Vision
Uganda: Danida Sets Rules Against Corruption
THE Danish International Development Agency (DANIDA) has launched an anti-corruption code of conduct for its employees and the civil society organisations it funds.

New Vision
Nigeria: Four Feared Dead As Robbers Raid Bank
No fewer than four people, some of them students were feared dead yesterday afternoon when some robbers who went with girls stormed a bank in Bori, Khana Local Government Area of Rivers State.

This Day
February 16
Nigeria: Parties Told Replace Indicted Candidates by Feb 20
THE various political parties sponsoring candidates for this year's elections have up till Tuesday, February 20, to replace those indicted by the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC), the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) said yesterday.

Vanguard
Somalia: Security Situation in Mogadishu Continues to Worsen
At least one person was killed and two others were wounded in the Somali capital Mogadishu in the past 24 hours, as no mortar bomb was fired last night.

Shabelle
Zimbabwe: Police Probe Gold Barons
SUPER-RICH illegal gold barons -- who have practically taken over the mining of the precious mineral and are salting away millions of United States dollars in offshore bank accounts -- are now running scared as the police net closes in on them.

Zimbabwe Independent
South Africa: Mbeki Will Act on Crime Without 'Theatrics'
An unapologetic President Thabo Mbeki yesterday refused to bow to pressure to make "theatrical" pronouncements on crime but promised that government would continue to deploy considerable resources in the fight against crime until it was defeated.

Business Day
Kenya: Child Trafficking Rife in Kenya, Says Envoy
More than 20,000 children are trafficked annually in Kenya, a trafficking in persons whistle-blowers' forum disclosed yesterday.

Nation
Uganda: Bomb Blast Kills Two in Nateete
Two people were last evening killed when a bomb exploded in a vehicle at Nateete, a Kampala suburb.

Monitor
Kenya: Corruption a Threat to Judiciary, Says Minister
Corruption cartels are the biggest threat to the Judiciary and governance, Justice Minister Martha Karua has said.

EA Standard
Kenya: Suspects Escape From Custody
Four murder and robbery-with-violence suspects, including a man suspected to have shot dead two American citizens last month, have escaped from police custody in Nairobi.

EA Standard
Nigeria: Pope Asks Leaders to Shun Bitterness, Corruption
Pope Benedict XVI has called for peace during the April general elections saying Nigerian leaders, politicians and political parties must do away with politics of bitterness, violence, bribery and corruption.

CISA
Kenya: Church Asks Government to Investigate Cause of Insecurity
The Catholic Church in Kenya has asked the government to investigate the cause of runaway crime in the country, and take decisive steps to contain the situation, even if it means using the military.

CISA
Ghana: Security to Be Beefed Up At Borders
Vice President Alhaji Aliu Mahama has said that major crossing points at the country's borders, would be equipped with high security long- range cameras and other security surveillance systems to beef up national security.

Accra Mail
Ghana: ECG Cable Thieves At It Again
MR. KOFI Afewu, Regional Director of the Electricity Company of Ghana (ECG) in charge of Ashanti West has expressed concern about the rampant stealing of cables of the company by unscrupulous members of the public.

Ghanaian Chronicle
Ghana: Clash Imminent As Police Say to March 6 Anarchists: We Can't Help You
The Accra Regional Police Command has stated emphatically that, they would not be in a position to grant adequate security to the intended demonstration planned by the so-called Committee for Joint Action (CJA) on March 6, which coincides with the climax of the nation's 50th anniversary celebrations.

Accra Mail
Ghana: Presidential Aide Drags Chronicle to Court
A PRESIDENTIAL Aide at the seat of government has launched a legal battle against General Portfolio Limited, Publishers of The Chronicle, an Accra-based private Newspaper, for defamation at an Accra Fast Track Court (FTC) demanding punitive damages.

Ghanaian Chronicle
Nigeria: INEC Commissioners Stole Billions - EFCC
The Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC) has said that the three commissioners of the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC) are being investigated over billions of Naira stolen from government coffers and deposited in banks within and outside Nigeria.

Daily Trust
Nigeria: Normalcy Returns to Mogadishu Barracks
Calm appears to have returned to the Mogadishu barracks after Wednesday's protest that resulted in the blockage of the Abuja-Keffi expressway and left motorists stranded for close to five hours.

Daily Trust
Namibia: Can't Explain Where President's Money Went
State House officials are still red-faced over an incident almost two years ago when a special assistant to the President allegedly misappropriated N$502 430,97 in subsistence and travel allowances.

New Era
Rwanda: Over 2,032 Primary School Books Stolen
A total of 2,032 primary school books have been stolen in Muhanga District between December 19 last year and February 3, the director of schools has disclosed. The District director, Claude Sebashi, told The New Times that the books were stolen by unidentified people and are suspected to be on sale in Muhanga and Kigali City.

New Times
Zimbabwe: Mercenaries Saga - Extradition Hearing Begins
THE extradition hearing of Simon Francis Mann -- accused of leading a foiled coup against Equatorial Guinea President Theodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo -- opened yesterday with an official from the oil-rich West African country giving an assurance that he would not be executed if convicted.

The Herald
Zimbabwe: Army Abandons Kondozi Estate
THE Zimbabwe National Army has abandoned its Operation Maguta project at the controversial Kondozi Estate in Odzi after failing to recover equipment reportedly looted by government ministers, thus paralysing operations and efforts to resuscitate the former horticultural exporting concern.

Zimbabwe Independent
Zimbabwe: Police, Politicians in Illegal Gold Mining
SENIOR police officers and politicians are alleged to have ganged up to mine gold illegally in the gold-rich Patchway and Chakari gold reef near Kadoma, prompting a probe by the police internal investigations unit into activities of a gold smuggling syndicate involved.

Zimbabwe Independent

Heres the link...

http://allafrica.com/crime/
Wonders how long african apologists will cite culture,as a reason for endemic corruption!
Dont african christians understand the 10 commandments?..ovbiously not...; 17/2/07 5:12 PM
Anonymous said...: What the heck are you trying to prove?? It seems everyone so far has agreed with your point that african countries are corrupt, and that many so called "Christians" there are corrupt as well. Why do you feel that it's necessary to keep insisting on this point?
Brian started this topic with finding the positive aspects of the country he lives and works in.
Yes, there are problems with corruption in Africa - as there are in the rest of the world (including your precious United States!) - but what's your point? Judging by the rest of the Family around the world, I imagine Brian and his team do their best to reach whoever they can with the Gospel - both the saved and unsaved alike.
In each of these aspects, they are simply agreeing with you!
WHY, ANON, DO YOU INSIST ON MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF??; 17/2/07 7:13 PM
Anonymous said...: Im in the uk,where you go to jail,if found guilty of corruption.
There aint nothing positive about nigeria,more missionaries on the ground like brian could make a big difference though,with a mandate to preach to the converted.

Why the converted,coz there the ones doing the stealing,never mind the poor for the moment,if you show a converted brother the error of his ways,then the poor will prosper at some point because of this.

Assume everyone in nigeria is involved in graft!,most are,because of greed.
The western oil companies give the going rate for nigerian oil,but most of the petro dollars end up in euro/uk bank accounts.

What nigeria needs is a new political party(christian backed)to spread the word,that corruption is not from god.

Millons of poor would agree with that last statement.

Nigeria could have an infastructure just like the uk...

Maybe you think god dosent want to see the situation in nigeria/africa change?..

What sort of uncaring god would that be?

And how would god stamp out corruption?...who would he use?

Many of you on here,bar richard and brian have chosen to have swipes at me,few of you here seem to grasp whats going on in the real world!

And i know as family members,very few of you watch tv,and probably only get internet access(judging by your replys)for 1 hour a week.

An educated christian,is an effective warrior in my book,able to debate,and tackle a crisis head on....

Judging by the family blogs ive read,most of the young uns seem to be on a touristy sorta approach to christianity,gap year students having a few years off at the expense of the family.

You people need to get educated,as to world wide goings on,thus in the process becoming more effective in reaching all.....; 18/2/07 3:31 AM
whacky said...: taking swipes at you?

Actually, Anonymous, if you were judging by our replies and the blogs you've been hounding, you might have noticed that many of us get on the internet a lot more often than one hour a week. In fact, we're probably at the other end of the scale, spending a bit too much time on the net arguing with people who have already made up their minds that we are idiots and have no clue what we're talking about.

Many of us watch the news, read the papers or get the news online. Just because we don't watch a million and one soap operas or stupid shows on TV, does not mean that we don't keep abreast of the news.

An effective warrior doesn't necessarily need to see things man's way. An effective warrior is someone who sees the world and what's going on, and makes a conscious decision to view it through the Lord's perspective. By doing what the Lord has asked them to do, they are the most effective - NOT by doing what they think is right or what other people tell them is right!

Jesus also never said that to be an effective warrior you needed to be able to debate and takcle crisis (however you spell that). But again, to simply follow Him, not regarding what others say or do. -No matter if they think we are simple ignoramuses, nor if what we're doing seems stupid or wrong in the eyes of the world! His ways are higher than ours and often it seems as if it's the stupidest thing in the world, yet the Lord brings out His greatest victories through it.

Remember the Bible says "God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty."

I want to point out a few things to you, Anonymous, in regards to our blogs. Many of us started our blogs simply as a means for family and friends to keep in touch and hear what we're up to. Hence, they don't have as much witnessing or Bible content in them. I fully agree with you that we should do more witnessing, but to be honest, I don't want to give you the link of my other blog because of some of the comments you leave and things you say.

Many of the young people in the Family have been serving the Lord all their lives. Some of them are going through a time of decision and change and many don't seem to be as great a "witness" as they should be. But you haven't seen the endless sacrifices they've made, you haven't seen the intensified battles they face, the constant barrage from their friends who aren't in the Family, and the never-ending struggle to stay "separate from the world".
There are some young people who maybe aren't doing as much as they could be doing or seem to be "touristy", but they're allowed a time of flux between 16 and 18. It's a time when they can decide whether or not they want to serve the Lord in the Family or if they want to do something else with their lives.
Don't judge them so harshly... Many of them are doing way more for the Lord than half the so-called Christians out there. I dare say they know a whole lot more about spiritual warfare than most others.
On the other hand, The Family is taking steps to rectify that young people who are here "just for the ride" are asked to move to different levels of membership. So we are doing what we can to correct the situation.

Just because you've met a few Family members in London and know a little bit about The Family does not make you an expert on how The Family operates and what we do. In fact, maybe you just got the real stupid ones on this debate (no offense to Brian and the other here), but that doesn't negate the fact that we are reaching millions of people every year with the Gospel (rich and poor, governments and labourers, famous and unknown).

I'm sorry that you have such a low opinion of people in The Family and such a set opinion on things that you're not open to hearing other sides. There's a Bible verse about that, but I don't have time to look it up right now.

Anyway, your points have been heard and those that are relevant have been taken to heart. We acknowledge that we don't know everything and we're thankful that you shared your input and knowledge with us.

Now... whatever happened to you bowing out of the debate?; 18/2/07 12:51 PM
Anonymous said...: Now... whatever happened to you bowing out of the debate?

Us scots never bow/duck outta anything!....

I dont have a low opinion of people in the family(dont put words in my mouth)..sneaky retort.
Constructive critism.

Im sure the family does much good work worldwide,id love to hear more about that,i love a good testimony,it inspires others to get motivated.

I know of a few other uk christian orgs that also send out missionaries worldwide,many of them work in africa/india.

It saddens me that very few prefer not to rock the boat,and remind ones brother that stealing is indeed a big no-no.

Most in africa,take it for granted that christians are indeed corrupt,im saying,preach to the converted,change tactics.

I have indeed met the family in london,none of what ive written is based on my meets with them(ooops they dont watch a lot of tv...sorry).

My culture,scottish,dictates my personal approach,we scots allways tackle things head on,ive never shyed away from exposing wrongdoing,over the last 10 years.

You see whacky,i as an ex alcoholic ended up in jail for my ex-cesses,i suffered the full force of the uk law for my various drink induced crimes.

So nowadays,with a new heart,ill expose criminal wrongdoing,anytime,anywhere,and i just happen to know that thieving(in the name of jesus)is rampant all accross africa.

It makes my blood boil....i have a genuine desire to see god use people like richard/brian and others,to try and change that mindset.

Id go to africa myself,but in all honesty,id probably end up losing my temper..

So as i read the familys 12 stones foundation course,i hope to embrace another way to vent my frustrations.(a godly way)

I live by myself whacky,i left my church 3 years ago,and unlike you,i dont have access to fellowship every day.

This certainly tells in my attitude,point here is whacky,im not perfect,but i think you get the jest as to where im coming from.

Very few of you seem to have grasped...(can and will god expose corruption?)
Does he?
Ill say this again..ive allways believed if somethings good,and its coming from god,you and i will see it in a godly light.

Dosent god use us to facilitate change?
As regards islam,i know what i see,i do not misunterstand islam,unlike you,i 100%understand the aims of an 'islamic caliphate'..go google that last word.
Forewarned is the watchword here.

You see whacky,depending on which side of the coin your looking at,for every wrong in this world..there surely is a right.

Many see the USA as a world police,sticking its nose in everything,where no other countries dare too.
Maybe god is using george dubya.....and he dosent even know it.

One thing i dont understand about the family(correct me if im wrong)
Ive proof read about 150 blogs,and most of the blog writers allways seem to be on the move,how can a missionary nurture trust/relationships/friendships within a relativley short space of time,then get bored?,and high tail it on to the next big adventure?....maybe you could fill me in on that one.; 18/2/07 3:25 PM
Anonymous said...: Oh, i almost forgot,heres a london based christian radio station thats on 24/7,i find it very inspiring.
http://www.premier.org.uk
Wouldnt it be great if the family had a internet radio station?; 18/2/07 4:43 PM
Unknown said...: Anon, that last post of yours was the best.....

It was deep, it was heartfelt, you shared your personal testimony & you didn't throw any digs at anyone. Well done! I enjoyed it!

Success with the 12 FS classes.....they're brilliant & will change your life...

1x you're through mabye you can visit us here in Africa for some hands-on experience teaching of those classes.

You're absolutely right about missionaries being most effective by sticking in one place...well said.

Please stay in touch & hope to catch your future comments here on ventureforlife.blogspot.com

GBY!; 18/2/07 10:06 PM
Anonymous said...: Deya the Head Devil.

Please can some enlighten me as to what is happening with Gilbert Deya estradition case, I know the Kenyan police and the Judiciaries are the most corrupt in the whole of East Africa. Hence, even if this Deya is extradited he may escape jail.
But the British goverment which stands for real democracy should sent this lunatic to Kenya and let him preach so bulls should have calves. Its sicken me to see some deprave people gathered to hear him preach and practise his withcraft. God forbid,; GOD said we should not jugde, cause jugdement is his: but for Deya GOD'S jugdement on him will come sooner than latter.; 29/3/07 9:40 AM